Teachers describe a deterioration in behaviour and attitudes that has proved to be fertile terrain for misogynistic influencers
“As soon as I mention feminism, you can feel the shift in the room; they’re shuffling in their seats.” Mike Nicholson holds workshops with teenage boys about the challenges of impending manhood. Standing up for the sisterhood, it seems, is the last thing on their minds.
When Nicholson says he is a feminist himself, “I can see them look at me, like, ‘I used to like you.’”
Once Nicholson, whose programme is called Progressive Masculinity, unpacks the fact that feminism means equal rights and opportunities for women, many of the boys with whom he works are won over.
“A lot of it is bred from misunderstanding and how the word is smeared,” he says.
But he is battling against what he calls a “dominance-based model” of masculinity. “These old-fashioned, regressive ideas are having a renaissance, through your masculinity influencers – your grifters, like Andrew Tate.”
In all honesty, 3rd wave feminism chased away a lot of male allies. Like a whole lot.
But I don’t think that’s what led to Andrew Tate, that is no failure of feminism.
Andrew Tate is the product of hyper capitalistic individualism being held up in all forms and media and real life as ‘the ideal lifestyle’, a rich, aggressive asshole that has enough clout that most people can’t back them down.
The Tates, Trumps, Elons of the world are having their day because our current generation conflates wealth with competence.
And it’s going to ruin our world.
That said, feminism as it stands now is far more welcoming and inclusive to men than it has been in 25 years and I applaud the change.
I’ll probably be downvoted to hell.
TLDR: If your legs are broken and you treat one and ignore the other you’ll fall eventually. That’s women’s and men’s rights. True equality is unachievable without both being fully recovered.
Full achieving women’s rights while putting minimum input into issues men face. Rarely ends well for either. High suicide rates, homelessness, alcoholism, etc. Those who try to find hope turn to their jobs, religions, and terrible role models.
Both sides have them but most people ignore the truth. People like Andrew Tate become influential because the underlying problem is ignored. More bad role models (BRM) will pop up until you treat the cause instead of the symptoms.
It doesn’t help that theres plenty information including studies that highlight the problem and proves the points made by BRM.
This is reinforced by several instances where someone wants to bring awareness to the Men issues being harassed, facing death threats and etc. This also happened when the first and only DV shelter for was opened. The staff and everyone involved faced a huge backlash that they ended up closing it.
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I know it isn’t much, but you should look up Hasanabi interviewing Tate. He gets clapped and his reactions pierce through that tough guy, strict father model persona of his, and it’s glorious. I was in Romania recently. I should’ve paid him a visit to taunt him.
The less I consider this man the better my general outlook on humanity is, and it’s pretty fuckdamn low these decades so let’s not add more erosion to that tiny bitter flake remaining.
I actually things those people are the last straw of that system. They are the final product of this system and everyone hates it, sooner or later. Your average traditionalist will not recognize himself in Tates lack of manners nor will the liberal capitalist due to his authoritarian tendencies. He is the final product of a terminally ill system and the full displays of all of its flaws. I’m quite hopeful since his downfall because it likely means people will move on from that system
Oh no my friend, it’s going to get much, much worse. There is no ‘he is brutal enough as leader’, there is only 'who can be more brutal and have the power to get away with it.
I wish I could believe in your optimistic view. In my experience the first part is right, but instead of everyone hating it, they will double down because NOW it’s part of their identity and you don’t threaten someone’s identity. People will move mountains to keep their worldview intact.
I feel like a lot of people confuse feminism for straight up misandry. #killallmen? #maletears? These were started by so called “feminists” but this is the definition of misandry.
And people wonder why young men don’t like feminism when this might have been their only exposure to it.
George Orwell, before he wrote 1984, wrote a treatise on the weaponiziation of language. It seems like he was right to warn people.
To clarify my post: the thought of what the word “feminism” or “feminist”, etc could be twisted into, reminded me of Orwell’s treatise, and how someone could easily get it in their heads that feminists have an overarching agenda to feminize everyone,. I’d imagine this is especially true for young boys,/menn. The anti-trans and anti gay movement or has pretty much always been framed that way, like the existence of them is going to affect Cis people or some other nonsense that is most assuredly a talking point of the alt right and GOP,. This becomes even easier to achieve if bad actors are being depiberately obtuse to manipulate a populace of young and misguided men, who’ve been left by the wayside by earlier generations who have regressive, “fuck you, I’ve got mine” attitudes.
Oh no some people were mean on the internet, better throw out all of feminism!
As we all know what small numbers of people on twitter say defines entire groups, that’s how we know all gamers are nazis…
I really think that tate is an imbecil, and his fanbase are just being manipulated.
It is sad to see that boys think that this idiot is someone who deserve attention.
They equate money with competence ignoring the fact that a lot of his money was illegally made.
Money == sex.
As long as women keep throwing themselves at people like Andrew Tate, men are going to look up to him.
He’s a human trafficker and a rapist. The women in his videos don’t have a choice but to do what he says.
A big problem - for ages now - is, that young men just don’t have fathers. There’s a male around, often, but these are rarely “fathers” that convey a whole picture of a male person. I grew up without one, and I can tell you, how confusing that can be. You attach yourself very easily to ideas other male persons have. Thinking for yourself is another skill that’s kinda rare, not only today, it was at any time. It’s hard to navigate these years.
I grew up without a dad and prefer it to having a shitty dad, which is what most people have.
Most people have shit dads? Really?
I have doubts, but I’m sorry you feel that way.
Absolutely. A good father is hard to come by.
A lot of them end up clipping the wings (and foreskins) of their children because their wings (and foreskins) were clipped, too.
These kids then go through life thinking that’s how they should treat others if they love them. It creates a lot of confusion that could be assuaged by acknowledging most fathers are shit.
They also are looking for a place to belong. Incels need love too
This is the reason for a very brief period of time, in my late 20s, I almost fell for Jordan Peterson’s schlock. In my opinion he’s the more dangerous one. I am a pretty level headed person and was then, but because of my upbringing I was vulnerable. Tate can suck eggs in hell though.
If you don’t want to parent your own son, there is someone out there willing to do it for you. They will not do a good job.
Is it really that hard not to be a fucking cunt?
For a teenager, yes. That’s why this is important.
Andrew Tate himself is absolutely a problem, that doesn’t preclude there from also being other, related, broader, problems. Usually, when you see an argument in the form of “X thing (small, defined, addressable) isn’t the problem, Y thing (large, nebulous, intractable) is the problem!” Then what is happening is someone is re-framing the debate from a cognizable issue to an unsolvable issue, to defuse any actual action. It’s a great tactic!
If men and boys are finding current models of masculinity to be difficult - which is what Tate et al prey on - perhaps they have more in common with feminists. The patriarchy harms everyone.
I think the difficulty stems from the growing disparity in wealth. As it continues to grow, fewer women are available for most men. They just gravitate towards the top.
It’s why we have people like Andrew Tate having sex with literally thousands of women while regular men kill themselves.
In that respect (“this is a problem”) yes, we have commonality with feminists.
But then, feminists will say “you men need to sort your own shit out”, which is not at all helpful. We need help. And if you’re refusing to help us, while also ridiculing us for needing help, well is it any wonder men don’t identify as feminists?
There’s sill a ton of ‘rugged individualism’ propaganda to dismantle before they are comfortable enough with their masculinity to admit that everyone is at least a little bit gay. I mean I personally know of at least two redneck ‘good ol boys’ that ended their own life than face the fact that sometimes boys can be cute too.
And that’s not even mentioning the fact that some states still accept the ‘gay panic’ defense.
Hypermasculinity has never been a natural aspect of human nature but to the patriarchy it is the ideal man. To become that you must mutilate yourself in a way that erodes empathy and trust in others.
And many, many men have actively taken that psychic self-mutilation. So many to the point that they are proud of their bleeding wounds.
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Underrated comment.
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It did not have 105 when I made that comment. lol
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From my experience, men who follow feminism get pats on the back while men who ignore feminism get laid.
The issue isn’t the men. It’s what women value. Men just do what they think will get them laid.
This comment is somehow both extremely misogynistic and misandrist at the same time.
Men and women deserve respect. Men and women are responsible for their own actions. These two statements should not be controversial
Literally nothing about my comment said or implied that men or women do not deserve respect or that either aren’t responsible for their actions.
Lack of actually good and well-known male role models leads to scum filling the vacuum. Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame. Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Role models
Boys traditionally are taught from a very young age that uncompromising, and ‘unfeeling’ toxic males are what we need to look up to. So that’s what they gravitate towards. It’s a whole other discussion about unburdening and unpacking toxic views in men that is the core issue actually at play.
Disproportional push in favor of girls and to the detriment of boys is also to blame.
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Doesn’t look like it’s gonna fix itself anytime soon though.
Social inequality is never going to fix itself. There isn’t a single issue in the world that is going to just fix itself.
You forgot Peterson in this Unholy Trinity of Toxic Masculinity
Women pushing for equal rights isn’t to blame for men not unpacking their own toxic baggage. If no one is standing up for boys look at the men. It’s not girls’ fault that no one is trying to reachout to troubled boys. The ones who are reaching out are toxic gross assholes like Tate or Rogan who are using these boys as a means to line their bank accounts.
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism when men have issues in society: “Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males”
Gee, I wonder why fewer men are identifying as feminists nowadays
That’s not what they said. You didn’t just simplify it by changing the words, you changed the words.
I’m a feminist. And a single father to a future man. Poster is right. I put energy into teaching my son how to elevate women. I also teach him self worth, healthy masculinity, and loving himself.
You just hate women. There’s no other reason to put energy into posts like this. If it’s because you’re sad and lonely and feel left behind, I’m sorry. I’d be happy to talk to you about it.
I don’t hate women, but I dislike feminists. And I get really angry when feminists try to claim a monopoly on morality. I guess you could say it triggers me. Feminists don’t care about men’s issues. At best they only give lip service.
There’s this popular sense of “if you care about making society better, you’re a feminist”. But feminism is solely concerned with making women’s position better. Which, due to how discriminated against women have been, comes out to much the same thing most of the time. But not ALL of the time, and when there’s a gap between “what’s good for women” and “what’s good for society”, there’s nothing filling that gap. No group to turn to. Any time anyone tries they get co-opted or shut down by feminists, or they tap into right-wing misogyny to completely defy feminism.
Yeah, that angers me. Men trying to better themselves are stuck between a rock and a hard place.
The people you’re referring to aren’t feminists. Someone earlier in the thread mentioned that no one who’s never encountered a piece of feminist theory isn’t one. I mean, how could they be?
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible, or a star wars fan who’s only ever seen start Trek, or whatever.
I understand how you can associate the kind of shrieking misandry you often come across as feminism, since the kindd of people (usually women) who are all about this are very angry and very vocal.
Actual feminists - the ones seeking to gain a more cogent understanding of the dynamics of gender and out of that create a more suitable world, don’t sound like they. That wave crashed and broke on the shore. Sure there are people who call themselves feminists who want nothing more than to replace patriarchy with matriarchy but they’re rarely the ones doing any actual work towards creating better gender relations.
I’ll give you a tipe that will help you spot the difference pretty quickly: do they ever mention men, at all, in a way that isn’t dismissive or angry?
If they don’t, then chances are they’ve never read anything about feminism that they didn’t see online. I think most of the ones that have read a book before would agree with you that it’s important that men have a voice, and many of them are sounding the same alarms you’re sounding.
When feminism talks about patriarchy they’re not talking about emasculating men - just that it’s high time tried looking at alternatives to power structures that only benefit a very small percentage of people at the expense of everyone else.
Patriarchy is men fighting tooth and nail when we don’t have to. It’s being told by society to shut up and get on with it. That your humanity makes you weak.
I’m sure if you could approach the theory with an open mind you’d be shocked at how much of it you agree with. Fucked if I know how you would make it past the refuse pile of shrieking blue haired misandrists though.
It’s like calling yourself a Christian without reading the Bible
There are hundreds of millions of Christians who have never read the Bible.
You can’t pretend that the vast majority of adherents to an ideology are not true adherents to that ideology. If you want to get semantic, reframe everything I’ve said to say “people who call themselves feminists but have never studied feminist theory” rather than “feminists”.
Now do you agree with me?
This seems a little disingenuous considering that the vast majority of Christians at least have memorized some scripture, so they know all the greatest hits. OP’s point is if someone can’t tell you a wit about feminist ideological literature, or name any hidtorically noteworthy figures of the movement then they’re probably not feminists
So you think the feminist you replied to doesn’t care about men’s issues?
I don’t presume to speak for any one individual.
You made a sweeping statement about what you think all (or effectively all) feminists believe. Why is asking about what you think a recent, specific person believes, somehow over the line?
Feminism when women have issues in society: “Men, you must fix this! Or else you are an evil person!”
Feminism isn’t women asking men to fix their problems. It’s asking men to simply treat them the same so they can fix their own problems. And it’s not even fully just men, but the patriarchy which if you don’t know the difference then you need to figure that out before you start making broad sweeping generalizations of feminism.
Feminism when men have issues in society: "Ew, sort your own shit out, loser males
Except feminism is also about fixing male problems. Every single problem men face would be fixed if we got equal rights. For example one of those most prevelant problems that men face is discrimination in family court. Men almost always get screwed when it comes to parental rights. This stems from the old patriarchal view that men should be working and women taking care of the children. When divorce was first legalized courts gave the women custody of the children so men could be free to be men with out the burden of children. Now, men have grown and are starting to realize they want to be fathers. They want families. But due to old patriarchal ideals and ingrained ‘traditions’, often not even conscious decisions, men get screwed when it comes to parenting rights.
This reaches across all feminist ideals. Men just dont want to hear it.
Except feminism is also about fixing male problems.
Sorry, I’m not buying it. It’s a cute saying but it’s utter horseshit. Feminists give lip service to male problems. Let’s take your own example of family court. Where’s the big feminist push to fix it? Because feminists are supposedly so concerned with equality.
“I don’t know off the top of my head of any feminist court reform attempts so obviously there are none.”
Get over yourself
Okay, results of an ecosia search for “feminists family court”:
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National Organization for Women: “There is a national crisis for women and their children in the family law courts of this country.” Clicking through the related links mentions men only as abusers.
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r/askfeminists: "What Do Feminists Think of the Statement “Family courts should not favor women in custody disputes.”? Tagged as “low-effort/antagonistic”, hilariously enough. Top responses: 1. It’s a myth. 2. Also, why don’t men demand paternity leave? 3. It’s a myth.
Quick note about the “it’s a myth” thing: a lot of feminists are saying “the majority of custody cases are decided out of court” and using that as evidence that a) the courts aren’t biased, and b) if women mostly have custody it must be because that’s what men want, since it was decided out of court. They miss the glaring obviousness of a man facing massive legal expenses just to have a family court tell him he can’t get full custody, or even worse, risking having no custody. Most lawyers will advise men to settle out of court. In other words, this is a convenient statistic to dodge the inherent bias in the courts, which is the cause of the statistic.
Anyway, to sum up: two articles deflecting into talking about abusers, one article that completely ignores men except as abusers, one article supporting equality, and one forum full of responses dismissing or belittling the issue. And one article that argues against feminism and in favor of some kind of right wing tradwife insanity.
Sure doesn’t look like any real reform efforts? Ya got 1 out of 6 there.
I’m sorry one Google search didn’t bring up populist topics you where looking for. Just because family law isn’t on the forefront of the general feminist agenda doesn’t mean there isn’t attempts at reform or, has been in the past. It’s very obvious your entire concept of feminism is rooted in ignorance at best, a misinformation at worse.
https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3194962
Here’s a paper explaining how feminism has changed family. Giving many modern (1960 onward)examples.
- Removed the ban on contraceptives.Allowing the individual to determine their reproductive rights. Both man and women.
- Made it so alimony wasn’t just from husband paying wife but could be from wife to pay husband.
- Made it unconstitutional to to discriminate against children born outside of marriage. Affects men and women.
- No-fault divorce. Allowing people to actually get divorced. Both men and women.
- Created laws for restraining orders, and classified marital rape.
- Increases recognition of informal relationships (not legally married).
- Created a legal separation between sex and procreation which laid the ground work for same sex relationships. Helps men and women.
- Helped remove gender based roles described in family law which redefined legal marriage. Helps men and women.
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Fair point, I’ve never looked specifically for that, let me do some googling.
I also blame CBC and other supposedly legit sources for giving this fuck air time and even asking him about the Israel/Palestine war as if his opinion matters.
Also so called journalists like this who remove all responsibility from Tate for being a rapist piece of shit
People hyperfocus on the 1% of crazy feminists instead of the other 99% who are actually normal and reasonable. Sadly that 1% are doing more harm to the public image of feminism than good.
We live in an age of twitter screenshot outrage and that pathetically emboldens some peoples beliefs so the root cause really is social media. Nothing more nothing less.
The only time I ever hear about that 1% is from the conservative propaganda machine, or MSM rebuttal. They hold zero power outside of the conservative cinematic universe.
At this point I consider it nothing more than manufactured outrage.
I see this on my school campus quite a lot. When the male teachers direct students from using an exterior door, they usually just say ok and then around. When the female teachers are on duty and day the same things, they get verbally abused. If I’m out there with the female teachers, there aren’t any issues.
Most things come down to people don’t want to unlearn things. Con-men like Tate pick up on that empty void for young men since there isn’t much guidance and lead them down the wrong path. It isn’t the end of the world to learn the way you’re brought up thinking may have been bad or harmful, and do better in the future.
