• Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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    1 year ago

    They don’t understand that Trump is just as pro-Israel as Biden, if not even more so considering he moved the U.S. embassy to Jerusalem.

      • Fedizen@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        *electoral system

        Because of FPTP and the Winner Take All Electoral College, there is a lot of political pressure to only have 2 parties. In a better system (proportional, ranked choice, etc) it wouldn’t break with more than two parties. In fact just reforming the electoral college to be proportional would likely allow 3 parties to exist.

        If you look at history the last time there was a viable 3rd party it possibly initiated the civil war by allowing an anti slavery viewpoint to exist (which is good, but if we’d had a better voting system it would have happened earlier and reduced a lot of suffering)

      • Beetschnapps@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Electoral system…

        Just as I have to watch half the electorate embrace the most asinine BS possible to justify selfishness and hate… it’s not that far out to see people screaming “genocide joe!” at everyone they see, as they turn off everyone and defeat themselves at every chance.

        The cool part is focusing all your effort into a camp-out such that your main message is synonymous with homelessness and you self defeat your own goals… all while you call the liberal element genocidal and basically show the world your biggest effort is to sit still while cutting off the liberal nose to spite your face.

        • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Purely hypothetical question for you: If you had a choice between supporting Israel or Biden winning the 2024 election which would you choose?

    • Kühlschrank@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Yeah even to expand on that - they don’t understand that everything they don’t like about Biden, they’ll like about Trump less. I mean I have real serious gripes about Biden but it is insultingly stupid to pretend that Trump would be any kind of a solution to those problems.

      • samus12345@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        It seems that many of them know that Trump is worse, but think that sticking to ideals and voting for a non-viable candidate (or not voting at all) is somehow the best course of action. Republicans count on people like that to win. Fascists don’t give a fuck how they get into power, as long as they do.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Republicans count on people like that to win.

          Republicans have lost more than one Senate seat because they ran zealous nutbag losers in safe elections and pissed off moderates.

          I’m not sure why Democrats get to run pro-war Zionists and Blue Lives fascists, free from the fear that they’ll suffer the same fate.

        • YarHarSuperstar@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Yeah but the problem is we live in at least a pro-fascist state if not a fascist state already. So convincing people who realize this to vote for the guy who has been voting for fascist policies for decades (as well as some progressive ones, for those who will say I’m ignoring the “good” he’s done) and is actively supporting genocide not just in policy but in his statements and apparently beliefs is going to be pretty tough. It’s not just about voting “not Trump” anymore, people also want to vote “not Biden”.

          • samus12345@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            If you’re going to call Biden a fascist, the word really does mean “anything I don’t like”.

              • samus12345@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                If someone is being accused of voting for fascist policies, it’s reasonable to assume they are being accused of being a fascist.

                • YarHarSuperstar@lemmy.world
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                  1 year ago

                  While I would call Biden a fascist (and I do), your logic doesn’t follow. Would I call every Biden voter a fascist? No. Fascist apologist or enabler, maybe.

                  • nomous@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    Apparently it did because you tried to say you didn’t call him that 40 minutes ago. Glad we could clear it up, it wasn’t that hard.

      • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        Or they understand that all this apolgetics for the Dems being the lesser of two evils just results in them being the same evil, just four years later. The Dems are still running internment camps at the border. They are still building Trumps wall.

        By never threatening them with actual consequences to their power, you give them a blanket check to fuck everyone over for their rich donors. And that is exactly what they did and continue to do.

        • Kühlschrank@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          No they are not the same evil, and it insults the intelligence to pretend otherwise. And threatening the Dems with consequences by giving power to people who are even worse on those issues than them? That does the opposite of what you’re hoping - it encourages that kind of behaviour.

          We got to where we are because the right has pulled the window further and further, step by step, for years - and we have to do the same. The system doesn’t just change overnight.

          You have to understand that a win for Trump this year is a total win for the far right and a total loss for the left. Anyone pretending otherwise is hopelessly misguided or intentionally stumping for the fascists.

          • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            We got to where we are because the right has pulled the window further and further, step by step, for years - and we have to do the same. The system doesn’t just change overnight.

            Because the Dems were happy to shift the window with them instead of pulling on the other side. Telling them “Either you pull it back now, or there is no reason to vote for you.” Is the only way they will be motivated to not help the Reps pushing further to the right.

            • Kühlschrank@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Sure just like in 2016 after we withheld our votes from HIllary and let the far right get all their wishes. The Dems realized how wrong they were and came pandering to leftists.

              But surely it’ll work this time, at least we don’t have that many liberal justices left to lose on SCOTUS.

              • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                Because you accepted Hillary 2.0 with Biden. The DNC is laughing their asses off, as they keep shoving a “establishment” aka far right imperialist neo-liberal economics candidate down your throat. And now they are gas lighting you, to blame you for them only giving your candidates that are against your interests and against human rights and international law.

    • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      Congress is bipartisan pro-Israel. This isn’t even a presidential issue.

      Biden just happens to be the guy doing the pro-Israel stuff at the moment, so he’s eating the lions share of the public ire.

      “You have to support the Pro-Israel guy because the other guy is pro-Israel and both party leaders are pro-Israel and the cops are trained by Israelis and Israeli businesses have strong ties with the MIC and Big Finance needs Israel to control trade through the Suez and you’re outnumbered and outgunned so quit fighting, just vote for Joe Biden” just isn’t a winning message among progressive voters this year.

      Maybe try it again in 2026.

      • firadin@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        The thing is: Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians. He’s providing aid to Gazans and pressuring Israel to minimize civilian casualties. It’s not great, or even good, I agree - but it’s a whole lot better than Trump who would be pro-Israel and anti-Palestinians. You’d see humanitarian aid end and the US support total war instead of the (slightly) restrained version we’re seeing now.

        • UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          Biden is pro-Israel but also pro-Palestinians.

          Biden’s Increasingly Contradictory Israel Policy: A former State Department official explains the Administration’s sharpening public critique of Israel’s war and simultaneous refusal to “impose a single cost or consequence.”

          Right now it seems like the Biden Administration is trying to pressure Israel not to launch a military assault on Rafah and to allow in more humanitarian aid. At the same time, it has shown an unwillingness to take strong steps to punish Israel or to restrict the flow of aid or weapons to Israel if the Israelis disregard that pressure. How do you understand the strategy now?

          I’d call the Biden Administration’s approach “passive-aggressive.” They are angry at Netanyahu, and were even before this. He’s presiding over the most extreme government in the history of the state of Israel. That government and the preceding dozen years of Netanyahu’s tenure are undermining the two fundamental drivers of the U.S.-Israeli relationship, which are shared values and common interests. So, it’s passive-aggressive in the sense that, six months into the war, the Administration has still been unwilling—unable—to impose a single cost or consequence that you and I, as normal human beings, would describe as real pressure.

          Unable or unwilling?

          Both, but I’ll get to that in a second. There were three levers the Administration could’ve pulled. They’re still available. No. 1 is to end U.S. military assistance. There’s no indication the Administration’s anywhere close to that. It just approved a shipment of two-thousand-pound bombs, and twenty F-35s. No. 2, change the U.S. voting posture at the U.N., either by introducing its own Security Council resolution, or by voting for someone else’s, that is very critical of Israel. It has not done that. No. 3, abandon the whole notion of negotiating the hostage release and simply join the chorus of those in the international community who basically say, “You need to pressure Israel to cease this military campaign.”

          And I think it has not done these things

          Biden is pro-Getting Relected. And he recognizes that his party is increasingly pro-Palestinian. However, his current policy appears to be a CYA strategy, intended to create the illusion of neutrality while negotiating a path that allows Israel to continue its extermination of Arab people across the region.

          As this exterminationist Israeli agenda becomes more undeniable, the job of appearing neutral grows more difficult. And Biden’s decision to (tacitly) back Israel at all costs means risking friendly relations with Turkyie, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. However, he’s staying the course, precisely because he’s banking on a mass expulsion and genocide of Palestinians today will strengthen Israel’s regional position in the future.

          • go_go_gadget@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            It’s especially telling that one of Biden’s justification’s for his support of Israel is a promise to his dying father.

            Is that how politicians in a Democracy are supposed to make decisions?

        • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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          1 year ago

          An alternative explanation is that what he says and what he de facto does are two entirelly different things.

        • Tryptaminev@lemm.ee
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          1 year ago

          Look at what is done, not what is said.

          The Nazis also proclaimed to be helping the Jews as they were putting them into Ghettos and then industrially murdering them in the Concentration Camps.

    • samus12345@lemmy.world
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      1 year ago

      The GOP openly courts antisemites while also supporting Israel. They make sure to have all the awful bases covered.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        They need all the Jews to return to Israel and the temple to be rebuilt so Jesus can come back. Of course, that does mean expelling all Jews from every other country Jews are in, but they leave that part out.

              • Aceticon@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Hating Jews “over here”.

                “Over there” is fine, which is why American Racism dovetails so neatly with Zionism: both desire the same, just from different directions.

                PS: I was going to say “Fascism” instead of “American Racism”, but frankly if there is one thing this whole situation has made clear is that Liberals are also all about different treatment depending on a person’s etnicity - as made so puignantly clear in their reaction to recent university demonstrations as well as by the very different language used in the Liberal Press when it comes to Palestinians and Israelis - so it’s really just both variants of Racism in the US.