Not only that, but as time goes on, we become more productive and generate more profits, only to see the age of retirement increased
This productivity increase has been happening since the start of humanity.
It’s kind of accumulative effect given the gains from technology we have
It makes sense that people will be able to work then more years, as your qol is also increasing as well
We’re more productive than ever and there’s more of us than ever and your conclusion to that information is that of course we should also be working more than ever?
You don’t question that if there’s more of us and we’re all more productive, then we should be doing less work? Because if we were able to meet our needs before then it should be even easier to meet our needs now as we’re more productive per person than before and we also have even more people capable of doing the work.
What you’re saying makes sense only if you put the production of goods above the wellbeing of the people producing the goods. So ask yourself, what’s the purpose of producing goods? If it’s not for us then who is it for?
Age of retirement goes up, working hours stay the same(or sometimes even get worse), wages go down(compared to inflation), and we still only have two measly weekend days. And the real kicker is that we know for a fact that we’d actually be even more productive if we soent less time at work.
It’s all horseshit.
You should tell this to subsistence farmers living in Sub-saharan Africa that farm nearly every calorie they consume. It’s a negotiation between them, the earth, and the uncaring sky. Same as its been for millennia. No rich people necessarily involved.
Are they free because no rich people are involved?
I can imagine by some stretch you can still blame the rich, maybe without the rich people they’d have more access to better farmland, cheap water, etc.
Lol, so desperate to be the victim of an imaginary rich person that you don’t even understand that it universally takes work to do things like eat food.
How do you think people got food 10,000 years ago? Or 30,000?
Do you think being a hunter-gatherer society is a vacation? Who were the rich people before money was invented that apparently caused things like drought?
The kind of comments I’m reading here explain a lot of why Dems lost the election
They are willfully disconnected from the reality of their fellow Americans
They don’t see it
I know, right?
Rich people are very likely at fault, too, given that shitty countries are handy for cheap labour and materials, like coltan…
Explain how that works with a village of 350 people 4k from a paved road, where no one can or does work outside of the village doing farming work.
Is every person in those communities required to work to eat and have shelter, or does the community take care of those that are unable to contribute labor due to health conditions/old age?
Everyone works, it’s just a matter of on what.
In the community where I lived, usually the guys did the farming, which was back-breaking work, leaning over hoeing land manually. Men would also raise livestock, be tailors, teachers, traders, barbers, and a few other jobs. Don’t get too wound up over “traders” - a guy would borrow money to walk to a large town and buy things he would sell to neighbors out of his home. He would do this until so many people said they would pay him back for the things from the “store” that he didn’t have any money to buy things in town anymore, so the town would be without things like salt or kerosene for lanterns for a couple weeks, and then people would get fed up, and one new guy would start the cycle over again.
Women pounded the millet and sorghum into flour to make food, did gardening, made every meal, raised the kids, pulled water from the well, and some other micro-level cottage industry-ish type things.
But people worked every day. Old people worked every day. Unless you got malaria or had a severe injury, every day was work until you died, and even then you tried to do something because there was always so much work to do.
Some people took care of meals and the household. That isn’t the kind of work to live that we are talking about because it isn’t directly paid.
Not to mention people with severe injuries or illnesses that can’t do hard labor. Someone with crippling arthritis will still be provided for by the community.
I do wonder what the alternative is… Would that be growing/hunting your own food and making your own clothes and building your own shelter? I don’t know about anyone else, but I would not live long in that scenario.
The context is that there is enough wealth in most western countries that not everyone must work to survive. Working should be for having access to more things that just surviving, and not everyone should be required to work all the time just to survive.
Basic needs are basic, like food, shelter, and healthcare. If everyone had access to those basic things they would be free even if they need to work to attain more.
It’s called democratic socialism.
The alternative is all the wealth and resources hoarded by top 1% are shared among people so that everyone has access to basic stuff like food, shelter and healthcare regardless of whether they’re able to work.
Which isn’t to say this would be easy to achieve, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try.
Taxing people appropriately is obviously the right way to go. But it actually doesn’t change the dynamic identified in the meme substantially. Rich people still hoard resources (albeit less after taxes). And basic needs are only met if enough people keep working to pay taxes or enrich their employees who pay taxes.
If people are taxed appropriately, there will be no hoarding
Maybe… Is saving considered hoarding? Is leaving a small inheritance to your kids considered hoarding?
Even without the semantic confusion or disagreement, it doesn’t change the fundamental dynamic identified in the post.
It’s considered hoarding if the money you’re saving was stolen from other people (and I’m including wage theft in there). If you’ve actually earned the money you’re leaving to your kids by hard work, I don’t see the problem there. Because there’s no way anyone can become a billionaire without stealing.
Surely there isn’t an economic system in which people don’t work for a top 1%, but for everyone, you could say a communal, or a social, economic system…
I mean, that experiment has been run and it is wildly difficult to manage (humans are quite wily!).
It’s way more complicated than that. Say hypothetically, we have an abundance of milk which we don’t but assume we do, so everyone can have as much milk as they wanted, and nobody needs to pay for it. First of all, the entire supply chain of milk production, packaging, & distribution must still exist & function efficiently, & maintain quality standards, much like it does in the current developed world. People will still need to work, farmers must still milk the cows, factories must still produce and package, goods must still be transported to and shelved on retail outlets for customers to access it. Someone still needs to clean the retail floor, and someone still needs to engage with the customers, and you need a way to reasonably compensate everyone involved. Second of all, what about milk derivatives that are not abundant, like cheese or butter or your favorite Greek yogurt? They are not in abundance, so you’re back to a scarcity economy and you need to figure out how to reasonably distribute them based on need.
Basic needs and the infrastructure required should be covered by taxes. “Luxury” items like greek yogurt can be capitalized.
A society must consist of individuals willing to perform labor- that much I know. I also know the current system isn’t working
Yeah the deal is, you do a sensible and helpful amount of work, and get taken care of in return, like (almost) everybody else.
If you work long hours, it’s because it’s thrilling and you choose to, even when money isn’t involved.
I thought lemmy already surpassed this “stage”
This isnt a shitpost
You know, if you lived self-sufficient you’d still have to work for meeting basic needs. Even in pretty much any form of socialism you are expected to work. So yeah, I don’t know what you think you are saying, but I think you are saying a whole lot of nothing here
The problem isnt the work, the problem is you dont get most of the reward for it. It all sits in some nepo baby ceos bank account, probably overseas so they never pay taxes on it either. Every company does this, and competing with them is a risk with a 98% casaulty rate
The problem isn’t that people have to do work. The problem is that we live in an economic system where the increase in profit created by technological advances is seized by business owners to make themselves richer, at the expense of the workers who they employ. This allows some to become billionnaires while others have to work multiple jobs or become homeless.
The goal isn’t to be self-sufficient – the goal is to continue to work with others, while abolishing the class of people who would happily seize profit created by your own labour to make themselves an easy buck.
You’re free to use your enormous wealth to secure a comfortable life for yourself and your ilk, just like they are.
That’s the logic. Law of the jungle. The strongest survive. And that’s why freedom absolutists are either moronic or evil.
This ain’t a shitpost, but it is a realpost
So why are u guys so against communism?
This problem was solved in ussr.
Ah yes, the USSR, a state which considered homosexuality to be a mental disorder and a sign of fascism, and then subsequently criminalized it, arrested queer people, and sentenced them to years in labour camps.
People oppose communism because we don’t trust authoritarians to make good decisions, and when they inevitably make bad decisions, the effects are disastrous and widespread due to how centralized the system is.
It’s unrelated to Ussr.
Many countries criminalized it and still do including US until very very recent times.Nothing to do with communism vs capitalism.
Communism is just a different sort of fucked up. It’s just as bad for people in its own way.
Is there anyone who genuinely believes that working for basic needs is freedom?
I don’t think anyone does. When people talk about freedom, they talk about being able to travel, do whatever they want in their spare time, say whatever they believe, buy a gun and a hummer, go BASE jumping.
That kinda stuff.
I imagine the people who actually think about how they are working just for basic needs are mostly a different group of people than those yelling about freedom.
I don’t know how many conservatives wake up in the morning with the feeling that everything they do is just to make some rich guy richer until they eventually die. Because why would they be a conservative at that point?
