Every time we go to Toronto we go to the same restaurant because they don’t accept tips, they just pay their staff really well. Fantastic restaurant and I love supporting them.
I just don’t tip. Period. Zero. Nada. Unless I have the initiative of doing it because I feel that the person did an excellent job.
Zero shame on not tipping.
Something I don’t get, why is it percentage based? I mean, I get it from the waiters perspective. But as a customer? Whether my one plate of food is 20$ or 200$, he did the same thing. Scaling with more items of time spent would seem more appropriate.
$20 is like, one entree, maybe a beverage at a cheap restaurant. $200 is probably closer to 3 entrees, 2 or 3 cocktails and an app at a moderately priced restaurant. You’re crazy if you think the amount of work for those two orders (putting them into the bar/kitchen, making sure they come out correct, running them, all while juggling your other tables) is equal. I also want tipping culture to end, but the price tag scales pretty well with the amount of work being done.
That’s insane. It’s literally the job. Imagine applying this logic to any service industry job.
Well usually more people means a higher bill, more people is more work. Lots of places even just add gratuity to the bill once a group size is large enough.
But tipping is dumb, and working in the service industry sucks… I have no easy solutions.
I have no easy solutions.
There’s an easy one that could be legislated tomorrow by any states.
Raise minimum wages and enforce it throughout ALL workplaces, including wait staff. Nobody should be earning less than a living wage just because they’re restaraunt staff.
Politics is one of those things that’s easy when you say it, but much harder for you to do. But if that’s easy for you to do, then please do it, for all our sakes.
Because it’s a con, and if it were a flat rate, people would see it for the con it is. By making it a percentage of sales, you can delude people in to believing they’re going to make more in tips than they would on an hourly rate.
Sometimes that’s true, for the vast majority of servers it isn’t.
Serving a $200 meal requires a lot of knowledge and physical skill that the server down at Chili’s probably doesn’t have. The kind of restaurant that sells a $200 meal also has a larger support staff that must be given a percentage of the server’s tip
You’re not wrong, that’s the logic behind it. It’s not like you’re defending it so idk why you’re getting down voted! What you also didn’t mention is that at these restaurants is that it is a much more leisurely meal and experience, so there isn’t high table turnover which lessens the tips. I suspect they also have smaller sections.
If you’re getting the same level of service at a restaurant serving $200/plate meals as you are at TGI Fridays, either you’re being ripped off of your local Fridays has amazing servers.
Restaurants when they expect a 40% tip after you drive to the store for pickup
Look at this comment to votes ratio. About 400 votes total and 170 comments! That is an awesome, active community!
The fuck? What kinda bot are you?
#Bidenomics
Or just tell them: I am sorry I didn’t come to visit this country to experience this awful part of the decadent American culture.
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Yes and no. It’s a vicious circle, why would an employer, the owner, start paying a proper salary if they dont have to, no one else does, and they would probably go out of business by doing so?
At some point the player needs to put the foot down and start making demands. Few rights were handed out for free throughout history, usually someone need to wake up and start fighting for them.
The US has some catch up to do, its not only waiters. White-collar folks could do better too… I’ve (Europe/Australia) heard from too many American colleagues and managers that they wished they also had paid sick leave, parental leave, so much PTO, and long service leave (look it up, an Australian thing, a few extra weeks off after a few years of service, hoe many depends on the state you live in).
At some point the player needs to put the foot down and start making demands.
And if you’re in an at-will employment state, they can fire you for that. Then poison you to all the other places in town where you might get a restaurant job.
I don’t think you understand how difficult it is to do any sort of labor action in the U.S. It’s frankly amazing that any of the Starbucks franchises have been able to unionize.
I would love everyone to be in a union, but it’s too easy to stop employers from quashing that idea. They can and will continue to get away with paying waiters less than they should and there are enough people desperate for work to take them up on that offer.
So I will continue to tip. It is not the fault of someone who just needs a job that they aren’t being paid what they deserve. The least I can do is give them a hand.
Seems to me like this is happening in all 50 something states though, not just the ones with special laws, we sure that’s the problem?
Of course it is. Why would you expect different states to have different tipping policies? How would people remember what or whether to tip in each state?
Believe it or not, non-union restaurant businesses, being the vast majority in the U.S., have a lot more clout than unions.
How would people remember what or whether to tip in each state?
Maybe not in each state but maybe in the one they reside, where it’s most likely they’ll go out eating? I’m not familiar with at will employment in the us but you seem to imply it’s inly in some states. What about the others.
And in the end, doesnt really matter how difficult it is for service workers to fight for those rights, no one else is going to do it for them which was my original point. What i do know is that the US has a history of people standing up and fighting for rights, it being difficult hasnt stopped others before.
People travel.
Is it really fair for the servers to be paid different amounts based on whether the person in the restaurant is from the area and therefore knows whether or not to tip? Isn’t that worse for them than it is now?
Is it fair for the servers not to be paid by their employers?
I’m at a loss mate. I’m having these conversations here on lemmy about us-unique problems that have pretty straightforward solutions (and note that I am not saying easy, but pretty obvious how there is one way to fix them, and pretty much one way only). All I hear back is weird stuff, of course it’s not fair to be paid different by locals than non locals but how did we even get down this rabbit hole? Everyone here seems to agree that tipping is stupid, that servers should unionise or at least ask for better treatment. Wtf, did Rosa Parker spend time arguing about how black people in some state had it worse than other states?
The same seems to happen when discussing about gun control. Not easy, what worked in other countries like Australia wouldn’t work here. But we need guns to defend ourselves from gun nuts. What about trans women that need to defend themselves (a real convo I had with someone, probably still in my comments history).
You know what? In other countries waiters are paid minimum wages, we barely suffer from tips issues, have universal healthcare, guns are pretty hard to obtain, mass shooting are a once in a century issue, our kids don’t do drills at school or have to go through metal detectors, white collar jobs have paid sick leave on top of 20-35 holidays days a year and if you need to fight nazis you can hit them with a reo bar. I’m not bragging, it’s sad to see how bad the US has it and even when discussing with people that agree in general with you (you seem to be in favour of unions etc) there’s always an obstacle or something that “non Americans don’t understand”, as i said in other comments you can wait for politicians or your employer to give you more rights or money but that rarely (never?) works.
No, of course it’s not fair. That’s exactly why I tip. Because it’s not fair for them and they need help.
I can’t change that for them. They probably can’t even change it.
That’s just not how America works unfortunately. America is totally beholden to corporate interests.
Also, saying “they do it in other countries” as if that means it’s possible in the U.S. when other countries have totally different laws is silly. Australia was able to get rid of guns because they don’t have guns enshrined in their founding document.
Wrong Australia was able to get rid of guns because everyone was shocked about what happened with a mass shooting, had the right to bear firearms been enshrined in the constitution there would have been a discussion about making a change to it, hasn’t the American constitution ever been amended? Any more reasons why changes can’t happen there? You guys fucking overcame slavery and black people managed to get equal rights (I am sure a few naysayers in the sixties were sceptical about that). Give yourselves more credit
I don’t really get why the expected percentage went up. 15% was the standard for a LONG time. 20% meant you thought they were great. Now 15 is considered shitty, like an insult, and we’re supposed to do 18 or 25 or 30. Meanwhile prices also went up. Why am I supposed to tip 25% now? Service hasn’t changed.
I’ve always tipped 20% for good service and 15% for average or below. I usually don’t tip less that 15% unless it’s just abysmal or I’m picking up a to go order in which case I usually do 8-10%. Several of the restaurants around me have changed from 15% / 20% on the suggested tip to 20% / 25% and a few have even added 30%. And I’ve also noticed the suggested tips are calculated on the after tax amount, and some restaurants that charge a credit card processing fee calculate the suggested tip on that amount. I tip on pretax and pre-fee totals and cap at 20%. If it get worse, my eating at restaurants will start becoming less and less.
I thought 10% was standard.
It was, and I still tip 10% unless the service was truly exceptional.
Service has gotten worse at many places.The servers are still great, but quite a few places have adopted the model of having you scan a QR code, you order online, pay with your credit card plus tip, they have you pick it up at a window, you eat, and at the end you bus your own table. Then they have options like 18, 25 and 30% to guilt you into the middle one. It’s like, damn I haven’t even talked to anyone yet, you’re jumping to the end first
Went to my normally favorite bar today and they updated their tipping button recommendations to “20%”, “69%”, and “100%”. The 69% was the default option which while I know they’re memeing, seemed really uncool as I nearly clicked approve without noticing.
Tipping is more than just a custom; there really is a culture to it. If you’re tipping only because you know the server makes less than minimum wage from the restaurant (or that greedy restaurant owners are completely to blame for this injustice), I think you may be misunderstanding an aspect of this culture.
Working in a restaurant is as hard a retail job as there is, and working as a server is often the hardest job in the restaurant. Being a truly good server requires a rare mix of people skills, math skills, memory, and a thick skin. So why do people choose to take the hardest job there is in the whole restaurant, when it pays less than all the other jobs?
Most servers end up getting paid better than the people doing other jobs in the restaurant. In most restaurants, servers make more than minimum wage. At the end of their shifts, most servers in turn tip-out the front-of-the-house employees, such as hosts and bussers, who often do only make minimum wage.
A truly excellent server may be the highest-paid employee for an entire shift – that certainly includes the manager and anyone else on salary, and it may even include the owner, when you add in labor and upkeep costs.
In order to make all that money, however, this server has to work at all the times that everyone else is out having fun – Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning. This server must put up with drunks, picky eaters and other narcissists, as well as seating errors and kitchen mistakes, all with a smile, for six or eight or ten hours straight. This server, who earns more than anyone else on the shift, is working harder than anyone else on the shift.
This is the other aspect that I wanted to address. Tipping culture is what gives that excellent server the opportunity to earn a better wage, more appropriate to the effort and expertise they devote to the job.
I’m sure this all sounds very capitalist, because it is. This may not be the most capitalism-friendly forum, I know, but I’m not trying to make any larger argument here.
I’m just saying that to me, it seems like this should be a “don’t hate the players” (owners, managers, servers, rich/drunk people who like to leave big tips) “hate the game” (tipping culture). And even if you do hate tipping culture, it couldn’t hurt to consider how it works for the people who don’t hate it.
First, good servers are far and few between and yet the expectation is always there (even in Canada for some bizarre reason). And people’s definition of good is also different. I don’t care about service with a smile, or being periodically asked if the food is good. That’s actually annoying to me. Just get my order right and get my bill within a reasonable time. Even if you are juggling 3-5 different tables, you have a notepad for a reason. That’s not worth much to me, especially since those are requirements of many other min wage jobs (ffs EMT personnel salaries are not paid much more than min wage, you see them asking for tips?).
Second, tipping culture goes easy beyond dining in. They ask for it whenever you pay, even takeout. That’s just rude imo.
Third, anecdotally, service quality is not correlated with tipping. The best servers I’ve experienced have been going to Japan where they don’t do tips.
And it may seem that this is punching down, but it is not because conceptually tipping is a mechanism to justify suppressing wages/value of labor by businesses. Instead, “hating The game” should be about raising min wage as a whole so businesses pay more, and if that means goods cost more, at least the consumers are more informed that way.
“People’s definition of good is also different.” That’s exactly what makes working as a server a difficult job.
Take you, for example. It sounds like you don’t like to be bothered when you’re dining out. An excellent server might be likely to recognize that and leave you alone after the first or second visit – as well as get your order right and bring your bill promptly. Even if not, there’s nothing wrong with politely asking to be left alone, but you can’t expect your server to read your mind. Some people do like to be bothered. Some people value the experience of being served while dining out to be as important as the food or the ambience. People have different definitions of good.
In your “first” part, I hear you talking about resentment toward feeling obliged to tip servers when they give poor service. I understand and agree, to an extent. Paying servers minimum wage (or more) would not necessarily improve the service, however, and could possibly allow it to become worse. The amount you leave as a tip – if anything at all – is still completely up to you. That’s a big part of tipping culture as well.
As for your “second,” and your “third,” I’m talking about tipping culture at sit-down restaurants in the United States.
Because you are able to conceptualize tipping as a “a mechanism to justify suppressing wages” does not mean that’s the only way to conceptualize it. Do you really believe that raising server pay to minimum wage (or more) would end tipping culture in the U.S.? I do not believe that at all. Because there really is a culture to it, even it is merely a custom to folks like you.
We can stop its spread – we can refuse to tip at places that never expected a tip before. But tipping at fancy sit-down restaurants is ingrained in American culture. It would take generations of social engineering to breed it out. There are people who like to be able to tip for good service, wealthy American people who will seek it out. Even if it became the norm not to tip at restaurants, I bet tipping would been seen as a status symbol at the fancier ones.
And what about the “excellent server” I talked about earlier, who makes more money in tips than anyone else on the shift? To you, maybe that person is akin to some sort of prostitute, to be asking for extra money in exchange for personal consideration, when already making almost as much as “ffs EMT personnel”? Seriously though, no matter how much you raise that server’s wage, they’re still not going to be making anywhere near as much as they did working those big-money shifts for big tips. All else being even, they’re not going to choose to work those crappy hours anymore either, so the restaurant no longer has its best staff working its most demanding shifts.
Anyway, it didn’t really seem like you were punching down. It did sort of seem like you failed to address some of the points I tried to make about tipping culture in the US, and instead provided information about your personal preferences and bad experiences dining out at full-service restaurants. That, and pushing the single-problem-single-solution minimum-wage idea, again without really addressing any of the possible collateral consequences I tried to suggest in the original post.
In order to make all that money, however, this server has to work at all the times that everyone else is out having fun – Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday morning.
Only tip at weekends. Gotcha.
I worked in this culture. It’s very toxic. Stop trying to romanticize it. The movie ‘waiting’ was super on point on how it actually is.
Actually pay restaurant workers a decent wage goddammit!
I mean, the city I live in requires at least minimum wage paid to service staff. It’s like $20/hour. They’re not going to decrease their tipping expectations because you know, greed is a thing
I can’t agree more. Tip should be considered an “occasional” extra. This kind of bullshit try to shift the responsibility of the indecent low salaries to customers who already pay the full price of the service.
We call it charity elsewhere. It’s a good thing but you shouldn’t build an economic system in top of it
I do not agree on that. Charity is something you give for free without receiving nothing in return (except billionaire tax-cut apparently). A Tip is a surplus you give to someone as “reward” to a particularly well done job as symbol of satisfaction.
This should still be treated as an “occasional extra”, the true income stability comes from “decent” paid jobs.
So what do you call it if it’s neither occasional nor extraordinary as it seems to be the case here?
No tip 👌
Well it seems like everyone else in the US calls it 15%, if not 25 or 30% now acfording to this thread, so yeah ill stand by charity
When times are tough dont eat out if you cant tip (at least while your jurisdiction allows exploitation of tipped workers)
“Other struggling people are not the enemy”.
Op is jeff bezos alt account.
Disagree. Most servers and bartenders are in favor of tipping culture and want it to stay this way with zero wages and societally enforced tips.
Yes, the corporations are the enemy, but these other struggling people are on the side of the actual enemy.
Well because the struggling people are blaming you when you don’t tip. They should blame the restaurant owner. But they blame the diner instead.
That’s why people take servers/waiters as the “enemy”
Doesn’t matter who gets blamed, if things were corrupt the customer would be paying the same amount as tipping that much. Tipping culture just gives the customer a chance to shirk.
Well if you are calling it “shirk” then it’s basically required. If it’s required why even give the illusion of a choice?
That’s my point. Tipping culture is stupid.
Consumers should pay the cost to consume, including materials, operations and staffing.
It’s not an illusion of choice, it is a choice, and a choice that abuses workers and confuses customers.
The thing is the consumers are paying the cost. The business owners are just taking more of the profits. They just need to pay the workers more.
And the “choice” you mention is a false one. People can’t really refuse to pay a tip, can they? They’ll get a lot of hostility from the staff (who have been brainwashed to think that it’s the customers’ responsibility). Notice that this isn’t really a thing outside the US.
People can refuse to pay tips and some people don’t care about that hostility.
If I’m not longer working for a tip, and my wage is built in. Guess who no longer cares about you dining experience.
Good thing you don’t know you’re not getting the tip until after I got my meal and service
The hypothetical here is that tipping isn’t a thing.
